Interview with Ella Price   By Catharine Kendall,1999 (Neal Erhorn also present)


Catharine: OK we’re taping now and I’m at Ella Price’s place out on Tachik Lake and it’s May 18th.Good morning Ella. Ella , could you give me an idea how you ended up in this area years ago, your family?

Ella: I was raised here.

Catharine: You were raised here.

Ella: My folks had a farm not a ranch. I guess I started trapping when I was 10 years old and I kinda just carried on.

Catharine: Where did your parents come from, Ella ?

Ella: My Dad came from Germany, my Mother came from North Dakota, originally.

Catharine: And did they come specifically to this area to farm?

Ella: Yeah, well Depression and they came here in ‘38 eh?

Neal: Yeah, 1938.

Ella: My brother was born in ‘39, oh I’m a late comer, ‘43, and a couple more kids, Eric in ‘46, Joan in ‘49. I don’t know, all of except Mike went back to the land. We’re all kinda farmers, trappers, guides, something like that.

Catharine: And did you parents teach you how to do the trapping and the guiding or ...?   Did they do that too?

Ella: Well, Dad trapped and yeah, that’s how I got into trapping and kinda carried on. And I got married when I was 17, what a stupid mistake. I did it. And went guiding the same year, in 1960.

Catharine: Was it a honeymoon trip or..?

Ella: Oh well...and since then I just carried on. I’ve been a guide, trapper ever since, well until I came here. Now I’m a..What would you call me? Farmer? Half a rancher? Half a vet?

Neal: Yeah.

Ella: But no, I just and I started working north, ended up at the Arctic Circle. Yeah I thought that’s far enough, ended up.

Catharine: So when you were 17, that’s where you started moving up north?

Ella: Ah, Tweedsmuir.

Catharine: Ok, so when you were 17 you started guiding and then where did you start guiding from?

Ella: Tweedsmuir.

Catharine: Oh you went to Tweedsmuir right away?

Ella: Mmmmhmm.

Catharine: And how long were you there for?

Ella: Just one year and then Eric Collier’s that winter, trapped there. Oh dear.

Neal: [barely audible, speaking of Meldra Creek]

Ella: Came up here worked at Nulki, {Talik}

Catharine: Nulki and ..?

Ella: Talik, Finger and ok, next year went into the Chilcotin and then into Black..umm Bowron and was there 14 years. I don’t know what’s wrong with my head, oh no, tough country, holy.

Catharine: When you travelled through the Bowron area to do your guiding, did you travel through Hogsback Creek and Sinkut Lake?

Ella: More or less. I walked up here in 1961 from Medrum Creek, Risky Creek up to here, whhew long ways.

Catharine:By yourself?

Ella: Yeah, no I had a dog, a crazy dog, a hound dog. Anyway he went missing that year and then I went working for Nulki. Went out to Finger, Tatuk Lake, umm I was there two years I guess and then to the Bowron. Tough country, holy man. Well ask him. No it’s like this [hand motions showing the ups and downs of steep mountains/rough terrain] but stuck it out for 14 years, my own outfit for 8 years.

Catharine: Who did you start working for there?

Ella: Ahh, what’s his name? Roy. On the Quesnel River. What the heck was his name, can’t even remember.

Neal: I don’t either.

Ella: No I’ll remember, after a bit. Anyway, I started for him two years and went on my own and then I sold out, kept trapping and then up north.

Catharine:To where?

Ella: First year I was in the Yukon, second year at Swan Lake, two years at Swan Lake and then Dease River for seven years and then went north to the Arctic Circle. I says no far enough.

Catharine: And were you guiding all the way up there too?

Ella: Oh yeah, I’ve guided for 34 years, I guess and trapped for 40, something like that.

Catharine:So when did you end up coming back to this area?

Ella: Eleven years ago now. Bought some cows. Terrible disaster. But anyway, I now have, what 36 cows I think. But yeah they keep me busy and I help Neal a bit here and do this ranching thing. Getting too old to throw a pack on a big horse. Well no, I can remember, we were at {Indian Point Cabin?] and I had to get a stand out to pack this horse. Seventeen and a half hands tall, yeah ok, I’m just over 15 and holy cripe, Big Red, got him from Frank {Shoeman sp?}. Used him for the year and I thought no, getting too old for this.

Lookit, there’s a yellow headed one out here. [Referring to the blackbirds outside]

What else you wanna know?

Catharine: Where were you, at Indian Head, where was that?

Ella: In Bowron, Bowron country yeah. Just off of Bowron Lakes.

Catharine: So when you came here 11 years ago. Where were you coming from? From the Arctic or?

Ella: Yeah.

Catharine: What made you decide that it was time to come back to this area?

Ella: I had come back in the spring. Helped my brother Eric.Some how or another he enticed me to come over here. Yeah, no I kinda like ranching,it’s laid back more. Anyway I don’t think I could climb up a mountain anymore.

Neal: You might be surprised.

Ella: But no I was raised here and farming or ranching we’re suppose to say ranching is yeah, old stuff I guess.

Catharine: Do you still trap in this area Ella ?

Ella: Well I still got a trapline but I haven’t trapped for 3 years?

Neal: About that.

Catharine: And is the trapline near here?

Ella: Yeah, it’s right out here. No money in it. Too much work, not enough money.

Catharine: And guiding, you don’t do guiding anymore?

Ella: No, we go on trail rides almost every fall. Neal and I and some of our friends. How long ago did we go across Spatsizi? Was that, one, two, five years.

Neal: It must be five years this fall.

Ella: Yeah, holy. Tough trip, it rained for 17 days straight. Everything was wet including me. But no it was kind of a tough trip. It took us thirty two days? Thirty three?

Neal: Not really yah know, we had to wait for the outfit to come and pick us up three days. About a month, I guess. If they had been there to pick us up, to pick us up at Toodoggone. Yeah I guess it was 33, gone 33 days.

Ella: Yeah.

Neal: That was kind of a tough trip but I still say I think I would do it again. I hadn’t been back for so many years, it was interesting.

Ella: Well Neal went up in ‘49. I’d never been there. Walter, Neal’s brother..

Neal: He was out with me in ‘49.

Ella: ...and in ‘50. I got pictures if you want to see them. I’ve been recopying pictures. I’m trying to gett’em done. two pictures of his Dad, the only ones I’ve ever seen and he was almost as short as me.

Neal: I think that’s all, the only pictures we got left of him. I don’t know, when a person is younger they don’t seem to realize these things. I don’t know what happened to them but they’re gone.

Catharine: So Ella tell me about experiences, just being, when you are guiding out there and working for other people...just the fact that you are a woman out there and it’s not wasn’t really accepted.

Ella: It wasn’t easy. Everybody gave me a hard time. Jimmy Morgan, that’s who I started working with. He didn’t hire me {Blackwell....??} did. But that little guy, he was this big [Ella: shows us his measure up to her middle forehead] and I can remember that crazy buckskin horse. They bought, Blackwell bought two off the guy with SPCA, foot rot like you wouldn’t believe. We had to put one down and the other I took. Anyway on the trail in which was 40 miles maybe, 3 camps anyway. That damn thing turned upside down in every creek, everyone, and now we got this huge horse to pull out of here. Well took the pack off, pull them out and I said here Jimmy good pack horse. He said “If you don’t behave I’m gonna bite your ear off.” He meant it too. But I started out with Robert Skin sp?. You know we were packing in. I wasn’t guiding at the time, I guided later but to start with I guided and Robert worked, a week, ten days and then he said he had to go to town. Well of course he got an advance and he said this guy owed him some money. “I’m gonna collect it” he said. Well he did he took a two by four and killed the guy so he ended up in jail and I don’t know I ended up with a bunch of young guys and I didn’t know what I was doing, 17 years old yah know. But that’s ok I survived and turned into a guide I guess.

Catharine: So did you end up just learning on your own.

Ella: More or less, yeah. I could just see Jimmy Morgan telling me something, oh yeah right. Well you know, old school, they didn’t think women should do this, girls, whatever. Yeah, I could tell you about getting pulled out of a tree by a grizzly bear, do you want to know that?

Catharine: Sure.

Ella: Yeah I had two hunters, we were hunting moose. One young guy and his father. Father and son.

Catharine: When would that have been Ella ?

Ella: Ohh, sixty probably seven, ok we were going through this bush and it’s, this is in Bowron, and it’s tall, grizzly challenged us. And I said “We better kinda back off.” Which we did. But the grizzly followed us down by the river, we were only 20, 30 feet from the river. And he started hollering again and told them guys “You better get up the tree.” Well that young kid, he was only 18 or something, he threw his rifle and up the tree like you wouldn’t believe. But the father was sitting there arguing with me why should I go up, you know and I kinda gotta wait for him to get up there. We all got up the tree. No I was probably only 10, 12 feet off the ground and the grizzly come, I knew he would. And I was trying to shoot him. You ever tried to shoot a bear out of a tree? And he grabbed my foot, down I went, on top of him, knocked the air out of him [Ella: makes the sound of grizzly getting winded “fhouououou”] So we, here’s two trees here [gesturing, here and there] and I dashed around this one, I went ‘round the tree hollering and screeching because I didn’t want the old man to shoot ya know I thought he might get me. And he finally left and there he comes back, so around the tree we go. I couldn’t do it now, no, I wouldn’t be fast enough. But maybe I would with a grizzly. But he finally left and then I had to walk home two miles in this, waded across the river, you know, water to here but I didn’t want to intrude on him. But I’ve laughed about it since but I sure wasn’t then.

Catharine: And were you hunting for the grizzly?

Ella: No moose.

Neal: Well you did get him the next spring.

Ella: Yeah the next spring had a grizzly hunter in. I was outfitting at the time. Yeah the next spring we got’em.

Catharine: The same one? You remember him? He remembers you?

Ella: Oh yeah, I felt him. He was young though, he wasn’t a big bear. But I’ll always remember that ya know, when I came out of the tree well he pulled me down and I fell right on top of him. A hundred and thirty pounds or whatever I was “whooof”. Escaped that one, a couple scars later. But I guess he broke my heal ‘cause I went in, not the that day, not the next day, the day after. Old Doc Holly he told me “Yeah it’s broke but they couldn’t do anything”. It was infected by then, so he gave me a bunch of bandages. The next day I went guiding. Well, what could you do, you know, I had hunters in camp, gotta work. Which I did. I can remember getting on that horse on the off side. Oh I was riding him bronc at the time. One of Bruce [Hammit’s sp?]. But no lead’em up to a block so I could get on. Yeah, I can guide.

Ella Price Catharine: When you were in the Bowron, how were in there for quite a few years..

Ella: 14

Catharine: 14 years.And where were you outfitting from?

Ella: Right on the Bowron about 10 miles from Bowron Lake. Built a lodge there, well not much of a lodge. Main hunting cabin. We hardly hunted out of there. See I hired guides, probably three at a time. And no, we mostly hunted in the Indian Point, [Hagan sp?] Creek areas.Boy that’s a tough country when I think about it now. I don’t know, ohh, big windfalls. You couldn’t go anywhere without cutting trail. And then I went north and guess what? Nobody cuts trail except no I cut in, when I first went for [Kilgar?] I cut into a summer horse camp. Just kept the horses there. Built a cabin there. I can show you pictures of that. One of my better efforts. I think I built 33 cabins.

Catharine:So when you look around, from all your experiences trapping and guiding, do you still see the same amount of wildlife and that sort of thing or...?

Ella: Not here.

Catharine: Did you guide in this area at all?

Ella: Yeah, years ago but I can remember...I had a girlfriend up at River Ranch ohh I think I was 12 eh? Irvine’s? Ten, eleven? I used to ride up there which was 12 miles. They were staying at River Ranch then. And I could count over 100 moose, really, yeah.

Catharine: On that 12 mile trip?

Ella: Yeah, and I’m not even lookin’ for’em, they were just there. But, how long would that be that they died off so bad?

Neal: They didn’t die off so bad, they did, but I mean there was so many moose they come back again but then they start....when was that? In the late ‘60’s. When they started, opened the cow/calf season.

Ella: Oh yeah. No early ‘60’s, middle ‘60’s.

Neal: I think so.

Ella: Yeah.

Neal: Anyway, I never did agree with that thing. You know I guess moose were overpopulated all right, that time. But they just slaughtered them.

Ella: Yeah.

Neal: You know, after they put the Kenney Dam Road in and opened that..I guess it was early ‘60’s.

Ella: Yeah it could have been too.

Neal: And they had a full season of all moose eh. And I don’t know, I didn’t agree with that.

Ella: I can remember the year I went too [Cultunin sp?] which was Boxing Day of 1968. No it was 35 below. Which would be what minus 30 now? And here I was out at the farm. Mom was there yet, Dad was there too. I come up for Christmas, I hired on, went up to Cultunin, which is on the Stuart Lake and here comes these two hunters and the season was still open then...26th...

Neal: Oh yeah.

Ella: Boxing Day..

Neal: It was opened later than that I think some years.

Ella: Oh it might of been but here comes these guys they had their ears froze, their nose froze and they had got a moose and they got Eric, brother Eric, to go and pull this thing out. But we got’em into the house and thawed’em out. Two Vancouverites. I’ll never forget that. Absolutely white and their nose and..

Neal: They weren’t dressed to go out..driving that road...road hunting is what they were doing.

Ella: Oxfords.

Catharine: Shoes????

Ella: Yeah and we had, probably, almost two feet of snow. But they did kill their moose and Eric pulled it out for them. We dressed it out. That’s the day I went [Kulchinin].

Neal: Anyway as far as moose go, like you was saying sometimes you would see a hundred in that 12 miles and now you’d would be in the winter time you would see that many. Now you would be lucky to see two or three.

Ella: Oh hardly even one or two.

Neal: Yeah, somedays.

Ella: And Link at that time. We had piles of them. I can remember, well Mom drove us to school. What year, when would that be? Late ‘50’s.

Neal: Late ‘50’s I guess.

Ella: Yeah and she used to drive us from home into school and I can remember seeing 20 lynx, coming home ‘course it was half dark or dark but boy you would have to go a long time now to see that many.

Neal: I don’t think trapping had an effect on them, I think it’s rabbits that the population went down so much. The last years is what really knocked the link down, that’s there main diet eh. And I think the lynx will come back if there’s rabbits.

Catharine: Do you see any around now?

Neal: The rabbits are starting to come back, if they stay healthy they will, but you know how they are? They get disease in’em again and die off.

Catharine: Where abouts were you going to school Ella ?

Ella: In Vanderhoof.

Catharine: You would drive in from the farm, your Mom would take you in?

Ella: For a couple of years, yeah. And then Mom rented a house in town and we stayed. Us kids, I...what would I have been..10 years old? Mike would have been 14, older brother Mike. And then of course Eric came and Joan finally, younger sister. Yeah, we just batched for five days and then she’d come and get us. And I guess we got half educated, I think we did.

Catharine: What kind of work was your Mom doing, she was working in town?

Ella: At times yah she worked in the Reid Hotel and the Grill?

Neal: I can’t remember that, I know she worked at the Reid.

Ella: And then at the Grill.

Neal: That’s probably where she was before.

Ella: She worked during the day and...

Neal: It was later then your Dad worked in the liquor store for years.

Ella: Ohh years.

Catharine: In Vanderhoof?

Ella: Mmmhmm.

Catharine: And he was traveling back and forth too? But by then all the roads were in eh, so it wasn’t so difficult to travel back and forth.

Ella: Well I didn’t go back to school until I was eight. I took correspondence. Probably learned more. Mother was a hard task  master ya know. “You do it!”. But, and then I quit school when I was in grade eight, well you know, got through grade eight and then took correspondence. Oh I wanted to be a trapper oh for cripes sake.

Catharine: Always did?

Ella: Yeah.

Catharine: So you were just itching to get out and do that?

Ella: Mmmhmm. Which I did.

Catharine: So when did you put your first trap down?

Ella: Oh cripes I must have been eight. Caught a weasel, something like no then I went shootin’ squirrels. I got pretty good too. Bloody old 22 the Dad had. Club. But no, I got pretty fair at it. But no it meant a couple bucks now. That’s the only way you could make then.

Catharine: And then, what was you first big game?...I saw one of the photos of your sister with a.....what was it?...a lynx?

Ella: A lynx. And you know what I did, I don’t admit this to many people I had the old club 22. So I got it in the trap I wanted to save shells because Dad said you know I had to get 20 squirrels for 25 traps.. or shells...yeah. So I was going to save one so I took the 22 and beat it on the head and broke the 22, holy man. So I ended up shootin’ him with the stub, ya know. My first big game. I didn’t admit it to many people. Well how stupid can you get, ya know.

Catharine: Ya you were pretty young.

Ella: Yeah.

Catharine: Nobody there to help.

Ella: No. No Eric was there, younger brother.

Catharine: And lynx went for a pretty high price then too.

Ella: Yeah, according to the time.

Catharine: I had heard that some males went up to $500 to $1000 for a pelt?

Ella: Sixteen I got for some of’em but that was, how long a go is that? That’s 12 years, 13 years ago.

Neal: When they were selling them live ones that was probably 12 years ago eh, 10, 11, 12 years ago.

Ella: It’s gotta be 12 or 13 then.

Neal: Something like that.

Ella: Yeah, they wanted them live.

Catharine: What do you mean by live? Just, can you catch them in a trap and...?

Ella: Well yeah, put’em in a cage. I learned how to do that pretty good. But a lynx is calm, you kind of choke’em down, they don’t do anything. So then you kick’em in the dog cage and take’em out and sell them. Well they were going to raise them but I think that kind of fell through now.

Catharine: Someone was going to try to breed them for pelts? Like they do mink farming or?

Ella: They did. A friend of mine in Alberta bought 6, 7 and he raised 40 young ones?

Neal: Probably he was fairly successful.

Ella: Yeah.

Neal: And he fed them chickens, tame, you know layin’ hens, he’d buy them for near nothing.

Catharine: And he got’em from this area or?

Ella: Yeah.

Joan Price with Bear Neal: Well not the chickens.

Ella: Well not the chickens, I hope not.

Catharine: I saw one of the photos of your sister with the bear, did your sister and you go out together and hunt or did she hunt?

Ella: No, I was ahead of her. No she’s five years younger than me.

Catharine: And is she farming here too.

Ella: No she’s at home, farming. I guess her crazy heifers escaped yesterday. Oh she’d got two heifers now, babies, pets. But they escaped when she was heading out to get’em.


Catharine: What other experiences, when you were talking about the grizzly bear, do you have any other ones that stick out?

Ella: Oh yeah.

Catharine: Oh give me another one Ella .

Ella: Ok, which one. The one comin’ down the mountain. No this was a big sow. This was at Bowron too. One of my favorite older hunters, I’d had’em probably 4 years already and he really wanted a bear. Ok, we got one up on the hillside and Bowron is like this [steep slope indicated] so up we go. Finally got in behind a alpine clump and he shoots it, he gut shoots it. Oh cripe, and the bear runnin’ this way in a kind of a draw and I said watch out he’s coming. So there I was behind two little spruce trees, no not spruce, they’d be balsam. I said watch out he’s coming. And here he was, coming straight at us, I shot him six times. Every time I shot him he’d kinda bounce a bit and he just passed us and oh I don’t know, he went down, probably 75 yards and hit a drop and collapsed. Well why didn’t he collapse before he got there. But no that could have been a disaster, but that guy was just sitting there. I don’t blame him. No, a few close calls.

Catharine: Where do most of the hunters that you’ve worked with or guided for and taken out come from?

Ella: No, Americans, mostly east, yeah..some south, but the last years were mostly Europeans. Germans, Swedes..wherever the Outfitter is advertising.

Catharine: So you started advertising in Europe?

Ella: I didn’t, no. Never did. All word of mouth.

Catharine: Word of mouth spread over to Europe and they just ended up contacting you? And who...did you find most of the hunters that came out with you were pretty skilled or?

Ella: They can sure shoot..but no, don’t know anything about bush or your horses or..And then I had that idiot that couldn’t talk, no, I shouldn’t say that. He’d had a stroke and did manage to come. And we were sittin’ there watchin’ a kill, tryin’ for a bear. He’d already got his moose. I think it’s caribou too, I’m not sure. Anyway, all of a sudden “Kaploouui!!!!” he shot right beside my foot. No he got so excited well we seen the bear ya know, he was coming in and I said “Be quiet, be quiet”. But no, “Kaploouui”, of course the bear goes. I said “I think we’ll go back to camp”. No he could have shot my foot off, but he couldn’t talk. So there I am sign language, no, no, yes, yes [head nodding].

Catharine: And have you always used pack horses, you never took out ATV’s even when they started to come out?

Ella: No, boats and horses. I like horses.

Catharine: And is there a problem out there now...when was the last time you said you went guiding..Ella: ?

Ella: Eight years ago, no seven years ago.

Catharine: So did you notice a problem with how much access is out there, ‘cause that’s something that a lot of people?

Ella: Yeah, no not where I was.

Catharine: No? So where were you last guiding?

Ella: Right up at the Arctic Circle out of Mayo, no, nobody there, didn’t even fly out.

[cat coming in through window]

Catharine: So when you came back to live in the Vanderhoof area you must have seen quite a bit of change. You decided to settle in and do farming and ranching and stuff.

Ella: No, it kinda, I kinda half got into..I came back to brother Eric’s place and I’d help him in the spring calving and gradually I bought a few cows and I don’t know why but I did and here’s Neal. No he’s been here forever and..

Neal: Well you know, she would be back out every year for a short time anyway. It would be a gradual change. There was a big change though.

Ella: Well I bought the trapline too, here. And went...when did I trap full-time...four years I guess. Before I came here. Ya know I’d come back, trap and then go back to work.

Catharine: So you’d trap in the fall here?

Ella: Umm, in November ‘til end of January and then sometimes I trapped beaver, which would be April or early May and then head back north and go to work again. But one of these years that you [referring to Neal] got me to come and look after cows. I was looking after...I was calving here and at Eric’s. Whew, almost killed me.

Catharine: Harder than guiding and outfitting?

Ella: Oh cripe yeah. But anyway and then I decided no, I better buy some more cows which I did and moved in here. But Neal’s been here for...

Neal: When I bought this property in 1961, not all of it but this place here and then I kept adding to it and I didn’t move here until ‘67 or ‘68. But I’ve been here since 1968.

Catharine: On this property?

Neal: Yeah.

Catharine: And before that you were at the same place as Bob was? Or were you at a different place in between?

Neal: At times. I worked out all over the place, Mostly fallin’, ya know in the bush. That time they didn’t have these machines, just an old powersaw. And of course hackin’ ties, we did that in the earlier days. I worked ranches too like Hobson, anyplace where there was a job.

Catharine: So you were talking about your brother Eric, that you did cattle at his place, where was his place?

Ella: Right up here, right across the road.

Catharine: And was he on the property that your family had?

Ella: Yeah, he was and then moved here. Oh yeah I worked one spring after Collier’s, I worked at the Gang Ranch.

Catharine: And where is that?

Ella: Riske Creek.

Catharine: Up north?

Ella: No down south.

Catharine: Oh ok near Williams Lake?

Ella: Chilcotin, experience, talk about being a woman in a man’s world.

Catharine: What was it like?

Ella: Tough, no we were on the course, well there was, one, two, three, four other young guys, with me. Ya know we all did the fences, checked the cows and then the calf and yearlings. I was on yearling end and we’d move’em oh I don’t know once a week or so. Holy man them old guys were miserable. The bosses.

Catharine: They just weren’t tolerant of having a woman on the team?

Ella: I can remember that too when I first started outfitting. I used to say “E. Price period”, instead of Ella . “Oh, you’re a woman?” Yeah I am so, but no they probably wouldn’t even book with me if they knew that it was a woman. And I just went by E. Price which of course I am. But I remember never kinda let on, call me whatever in the heck you want to call me.

Catharine: And you had lots of people, well if you had word of mouth, you must have been pretty successful, people kept coming back.

Ella: Oh yeah. I had some hunters from Tatuk. They started with Wayne Berg's  outfit, followed me. Probably 10 years I had them hunters. Oh, well.

Catharine: That’s great.

Ella: Except old Charlie.He wanted a grizzly really desperately. So that’s the one I told ya that you know he seen Old Indian the bear, three different years and he, every time he’d see him he’d just kinda get in awe, ya know, big bear, and he never did shoot him. He got the one that was deaf and blind. That little bear. I gotta picture of him.   don’t how he survived. Had to shoot him he attacked us, we had a river boat at that time, but no he was only about that big. But he had been in a fire, he was definitely both eyes were clouded, his ears were burnt off. Poor little thing. How did he make it? He was probably six years old when we got him. Nice hide. But boy I felt sorry for him after we shot him but probably been better to shoot’em ya know.

Catharine: Where was that?

Ella: Bowron.

Catharine: In Bowron area hmm.

Ella: We had a big bear there, we called him Old Indian, finally got’em. But I wanted Charlie to get’em. That was my old hunter. He’d just sit and look at him.

Neal: He wouldn’t shoot?

Ella: No, just couldn’t. I don’t know. He really wanted a bear.

Neal: It was just like he was paralyzed.

Ella: Yeah, yeah just sat there and watching him. But then Charlie got sick and didn’t come that one year and we did get him and he was 24 3/4 on the skull, which is huge. He made number three in the record book or something like that.

Catharine: Is the record for North America or for that area or....?

Ella: No, for North America, yeah.